editions and versions of ZEVO, community and open source

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Re: editions and versions of ZEVO, community and open source

Post by ilovezfs » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:47 pm

grahamperrin wrote:I'd love open source but it's reasonable for GreenBytes to aim to sell to Apple or whoever.

You assume that closed source software makes sense under any circumstances.

In any event, given that GreenBytes seems to have concluded that it can't make a sufficient return on continued ZEVO development, I suspect it will be a very hard sell to convince a buyer that, unlike GreenBytes, the buyer will be able to make a sufficient return on their investment—all the more so, given that such a buyer would be the FOURTH business to make a go at ZFS for OS X (Apple, Ten's Complement, GreenBytes).

My prediction is that this product is completely dead in the water, unless a buyer magically appears very quickly or GreenBytes decides to free the source very soon.
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Ways forward

Post by grahamperrin » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:47 am

Whatever the history, I see one selling point that overrides all others:

  • ZFS – as we now know it – is the most logical, most collaborative way forward for file systems development on OS X

– and that selling point may be unique.

I can't put a price on it, but that point alone should encourage a company as sensible as Apple to reinvest and ultimately reopen as much as possible of the code.
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Re: Ways forward

Post by ilovezfs » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:00 am

grahamperrin wrote:Whatever the history, I see one selling point that overrides all others:

  • ZFS – as we now know it – is the most logical, most collaborative way forward for file systems development on OS X

– and that selling point may be unique.

I can't put a price on it, but that point alone should encourage a company as sensible as Apple to reinvest and ultimately reopen as much as possible of the code.

Pure fantasy. Unfortunately HFS+J is so tightly coupled with OS X that Apple will not be acquiring ZEVO or using ZFS ever. Apple doesn't even run OS X in its own data centers. Hint: they use Solaris and Linux.
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Re: editions and versions of ZEVO, community and open source

Post by grahamperrin » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:02 am

If we don't wish – more specifically, if we don't request (or feedback) – we don't get ;-)
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Re: editions and versions of ZEVO, community and open source

Post by ilovezfs » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:07 am

grahamperrin wrote:If we don't wish – more specifically, if we don't request (or feedback) – we don't get ;-)

Hahaha. Remember: as Steve Jobs taught the world, Apple tells us what we want, not the other way around.
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Open ZFS

Post by grahamperrin » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:21 am

A conference talk to be given on 2013-09-28 at EuroBSDcon 2013:

Open ZFS: Upcoming Features and Performance Enhancements with Illumos and FreeBSD joining Forces

> The Open ZFS project will provide a common development hub for
> all platforms working with open source ZFS code. … enable ZFS code and
> ideas to flow easily between the Illumos, FreeBSD and ZFS on Linux communities …

Matt Ahrens confirms that the phrase is Open ZFS – two words (not OpenZFS and not Arens – those are typos on the page).
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bsdtalk227 - ZFS with Matt Ahrens

Post by grahamperrin » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:56 pm

http://bsdtalk.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/b ... hrens.html

Audio, around thirty minutes. Some highlights:

… the Open ZFS umbrella. At this point there's very little formal management structure … great innovations … set up a web site and a community where we can at least further the dialogue between the different communities and make it easier for us to maintain one continuous code base with the minimum of differences between the different platforms.

… long-term goal … Open ZFS, which is not specific to any platform and where all of the platforms are kind of, on equal footing … it really is a cross-platform technology, and we don't want to make it so that one platform is favoured over the others. We want to maintain the high quality bar for ZFS, but without making other platforms jump through extra hoops.

… We can't relicense the existing code because the copyright is owned by a bunch of companies including Oracle, and they're not going to relicense it under the GPL.

… the good, modular design of ZFS allows alot of extensibility and portability. … UFS has been around for around thirty years, hopefully ZFS will last as long as that.

… it *is* a general purpose file system. It is designed to be hopefully, the best file system in a huge variety of use cases. …
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Re: editions and versions of ZEVO, community and open source

Post by emory » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:49 pm

Since Apple already has inertia on Core Storage and is slowly working towards a LVM would ZFS/ZEVO even play well in that environment? (I ask based on ZFS liking being fed disks, not partitions)
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Re: editions and versions of ZEVO, community and open source

Post by grahamperrin » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:09 pm

You can give a Core Storage logical volume to ZEVO. I have a Core Storage encrypted ZFS home directory. And so on.

I sense much more inertia around ZFS than around Core Storage.
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Re: Ways forward

Post by rcfa » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:08 pm

ilovezfs wrote:
grahamperrin wrote:Whatever the history, I see one selling point that overrides all others:

  • ZFS – as we now know it – is the most logical, most collaborative way forward for file systems development on OS X

– and that selling point may be unique.

I can't put a price on it, but that point alone should encourage a company as sensible as Apple to reinvest and ultimately reopen as much as possible of the code.

Pure fantasy. Unfortunately HFS+J is so tightly coupled with OS X that Apple will not be acquiring ZEVO or using ZFS ever.


HFS+ is very tightly coupled with OS X, that's true. But it's tightly coupled in order to implement things like TimeMachine, etc. that are not easy to implement on a regular, old-fashioned file system. However, these things could be re-implemented in a jiffy and much more efficiently using the features that ZFS offers.
The heavy lifting of adapting ZFS to the Mac has been done, the lawsuit that supposedly scared Apple away from ZFS back in the day is settled, so now all that's missing are the OS internals to which only Apple has access.
Perfectly doable within 1-2 OS release cycles, and much sooner if all we're looking at is an additional file system supported for secondary volumes.
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